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Z71
DigitalCHET
Join Date 05/2001
+27
Reply #51 November 16, 2007 6:16:52 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
The second that financial gain via the Master Program was introduced to skinning, the dynamics changed. The terms of service should be altered to keep the Master program in control and working in the best interest of the community and WC subscribers.

Allowing people to advertise (no matter what it is)is not even a slippery slope. It's a direct road to failure IMHO.

"Foot in the door" techniques of advertising are just sitting their waiting to get in once the door is open. People will resort to the lowest of lows when it comes to making money and to be honest, I don't trust any single one of you when it comes to business.


That's why the site has moderators.
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Z71
brewman
Join Date 08/2002
+4
Reply #52 November 16, 2007 6:53:18 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Night Train nailed it IMO.  
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Z71
Quentin94
Join Date 08/2006
+119
Reply #53 November 16, 2007 6:59:23 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Just my two cents:

IF masters skinners can advertise in the site for their work on their own site ,
you have two options:

first one every ones keep making a post every month (or 2 weeks )  and it's all good (for me at least. I don't see any problems if it's on control).

Second you'll see (and i don't believe it) a post per day or a bump per day or whatever really sad and their sign/logo/name every where. (thought i think too many advertising kill sales)

Idea:

Why not make a separeted section in WC for master skins i means like "Home, Gallery, Master Skins ,Articles, Forums, Help, Shop" it'll be more easy to search them and with a subsection in this section where Masters could also make articles to advertise to their sites and works (here or out).
Those articles will be moderated like those in front pages and when allowed go also in forums (by a cross over)
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Z71
Jafo
Join Date 03/2001
+1822 sdemployee
Reply #54 November 16, 2007 7:00:43 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums

In real life instances of Stardock co-existing within the greater skinning/skinnables community the perfect example was and still is JCRabbit's Winstep, something that could be seen as a direct competitor to Object Desktop, etc., yet is allowed/encouraged as newsworthy for Wincustomize.com to 'promote'.

The simplest reasoning for this has been Frogboy's well known reference to the adage 'a high tide raises every boat'....[to translate that means that promoting one facet of skinning can and does benefit all facets as public awareness is enhanced].

Now this makes a good argument for the status quo regarding Masters and promotion of offsite works...

However, for one to become a 'Master' there needs to have been a demonstrated commitment to skinning in general AND Wincustomize.com in particular...both culminating in the ability to sell works publicly from such a high-profile site as Wincustomize which would guarantee reasonable success.

This currently does not prohibit any form of third-party commercialism but it would be expected that such Masters would sensibly avail themselves of the bestowed access/opportunity rather than expect some form of superior [commercial] success rate on a private site - no matter where the 'advertising' is placed.

If, however it is determined that policy needs to be in place to 'limit' off-site publicity then that can/will be decided by those responsible for the commercial viability/sustainability of the site, namely Stardock.

I don't actually see all this as an issue...as instances exist/ed in the past where others have plied their wares...eg...Pixtudio...The Skins Factory, and likely any/every other commercial skinning co.

The only dynamic which has changed is the current option available to 'Masters' to sell works here on Wincustomize as well as elsewhere...

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Z71
vStyler
Join Date 11/2004
+919
Reply #55 November 16, 2007 7:03:30 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
The Master program is so much more than selling skins John.

I stated in it's simplest terms, I realize its a lot more but i believe the main motivation behind attaining it is financial gain.. if anyone disagree's with that they may need to brush up on their human nature. I understand it also comes with perks and responsibilities and I personally have done every I can to live up to those.

imposing it on others

I never imposed anything. Please don't make out like I did.

a perk of being an active part of the community rather than being a job.

It's my job or a good part of it.

how come when a maxstyles skin is released here, its called a 'community skin' when the majority of the work is done by people who work for john and get paid for it..... i thought a community skin was done by a group of people who get together and work on a skin, do it for free, and submit it. sorry......gotta know this one.........


Because it is FOR the community, no one gets paid for it and no one works "for" me.. they work with me and I assure you are all happy to be a part of our team. Please if your going to bring something into the conversation, do your homework as this comment basically belittled everyone who has been bringing WC these community suites. Also any announcement of a Maxstyles suite as being a community suite has been done via admin at WC and its just fine with me as that is exactly what it is. Also, yes I announced Maxstyles when I first re-opened it for WB skins..There was ZERO for sale on the site at that time.

Just because someone less intellgent making fuss,

Ahh.. Nicolas..good to see you again..just joined today..eh?... but know all the previous skins for sale posts and again can't help but to insult me. You don't hide yourself very well my friendly stalker. if your going to call someone out as less intelligent, learn how to spell.

"Foot in the door" techniques of advertising are just sitting their waiting to get in once the door is open. People will resort to the lowest of lows when it comes to making money


Night Train nailed it IMO.
X2


Lastly, it blows me away that I try to stick up for doing the right thing and end up looking like the bad guy.   
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Z71
NightTrainthedark
Join Date 07/2003
+255
Reply #56 November 16, 2007 7:09:40 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
'a high tide raises every boat'



except... a low tide has to happen for a high tide to occur.   
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Z71
vStyler
Join Date 11/2004
+919
Reply #57 November 16, 2007 7:12:55 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
I don't actually see all this as an issue...as instances exist/ed in the past where others have plied their wares...eg...Pixtudio...The Skins Factory, and likely any/every other commercial skinning co.


Then I guess that settles it. I was wrong. The door is basically open.
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Z71
NightTrainthedark
Join Date 07/2003
+255
Reply #58 November 16, 2007 7:13:18 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Post a screenshot in the screenshot section showing the work and give links to the offsite downloads. As long as the forums don't become "craig's list" it should all work out.

I also wonder why Vstyler doesn't get credit for doing/ saying what he thinks is best for the communtiy. He has alot to gain by being able to promote his work yet he argues against such actions. Odd...
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Z71
messiah1
Join Date 10/2005
+434
Reply #59 November 16, 2007 7:27:56 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
I'm late to the thread but was reading and this jab caught me...

how come when a maxstyles skin is released here, its called a 'community skin' when the majority of the work is done by people who work for john and get paid for it..... i thought a community skin was done by a group of people who get together and work on a skin, do it for free, and submit it. sorry


We are a community of skinners. John just pooled our talents together and created a team. I don't "work" for John. John and other members of MaxStyles allow me to create skins FOR their WindowBlinds. I don't receive ANY monetary gains from my work. Just recognition and a chance to provide a needed service. John has afforded me the opportunity to sell stuff on his site, but if you go check out the premium page, you'll note that I don't have anything to offer there. I wrestled with this for awhile and decided that I'd do better to wait and hone my skills before offering up something for sale. Will I in the future? Possibly, but that remains to be seen.
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Z71
ZubaZ
Join Date 11/2001
+917
Reply #60 November 16, 2007 7:30:49 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
I don't actually see all this as an issue...as instances exist/ed in the past where others have plied their wares...eg...Pixtudio...The Skins Factory, and likely any/every other commercial skinning co.


Then I guess that settles it. I was wrong. The door is basically open.

Again, what an interesting and enlightening discussion..  Thanks again everyone.

The interesting thing for me is that everyone here is arguing their point with the best interests of WC in mind.  That's what makes folks Masters.  Thank you all.

I think the moderators here can handle any "foot in the door" and the "slippery slope" issues if we needed to.  I however, think that these same folks who have become masters will police themselves more than the moderators would (as vStyler has done and many others before).  They don't want to look like spammers, right? 
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Z71
Jafo
Join Date 03/2001
+1822 sdemployee
Reply #61 November 16, 2007 7:41:38 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums

Lastly, it blows me away that I try to stick up for doing the right thing and end up looking like the bad guy

No-one's a 'bad guy'...not in this discussion....it's more a debate on whether commercial promotion really needs regulation....or not.

If it is 'buy the cheapest Nokia here' then as you may notice it gets summarily removed.

That ain't going to happen if it is both skinning-related and seen as non-detrimental to the site.

The only indeterminate [at this stage] is whether or not it is considered 'detrimental'...

I don't think it is...but that's a personal standpoint, not that which can be deemed 'official policy'...

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Z71
Lantec
Join Date 07/2003
+346 wcwizop
Reply #62 November 16, 2007 7:45:36 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Wow, spend a few hours in the real world and miss the best thread in a month.........

The second that financial gain via the Master Program was introduced to skinning, the dynamics changed. The terms of service should be altered to keep the Master program in control and working in the best interest of the community and WC subscribers.


Regardless of what's happened in the past I believe NT hit the nail on the head with this one. Having said that now I have to go off and see what Ross's new skin looks like......
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Z71
eieio
Join Date 03/2003
+52
Reply #63 November 16, 2007 8:07:16 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Maybe I'm getting a different take on what Vstyler is getting at (par for the course for me), but I get the sense that he is concerned that if anyone, Master or not, can 'advertise' offsite skins for sale here at WC in the forums, it negates a lot of the incentive to become a Master; perhaps not egotistically but at least financially.

On the other hand, I get the sense that many of the posts in response are addressing the pros and cons of only Masters in regard to advertising offsite skins.

Is advertising of offsite skins to be allowed by anyone? Masters only?


I could see the latter as a sort of compromise. Masters would get the benefit of advertisement for both onsite and offsite skins, while retaining the lure of such to non-Masters to become Masters in order to attain that privilege.
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Z71
ZubaZ
Join Date 11/2001
+917
Reply #64 November 16, 2007 8:23:53 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
On the other hand, I get the sense that many of the posts in response are addressing the pros and cons of only Masters in regard to advertising offsite skins.

Is advertising of offsite skins to be allowed by anyone? Masters only?
WC is a skinning site.  Any news about and around skinning is good and valid in . . (dare I say it) . . moderation.    A new skin is from a Master or any of the greats skinners here is news.  Making a forum post announcing a skin that doesn't deserve that announcement would have it's own consequences most likely delivered by the community.

I hadn't realized the impact selling would change the promotion system here.  Who knew?   I really thought that the recognition of moving up the ranks was the pay-off for the hard work and time that goes into it.  I've nothing against having the ability and privilege to sell skins here but I really didn't think that was the goal of most of the folks here.
I don't think there's anything wrong with that; I just never thought of it that way.  It probably because I know that I could never be as good as these folks are.  It would never be an option for me. 
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Z71
WOM
Join Date 01/2002
+253 moderator
Reply #65 November 16, 2007 8:48:48 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
I hate reading, would rather wait for the movie.    But from what I read, anyone can sell skins on their site and advertise them on WC and not have to sell them here.  
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Z71
kenwas
Join Date 04/2003
+124
Reply #66 November 16, 2007 9:00:20 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
But from what I read, anyone can sell skins on their site and advertise them on WC and not have to sell them here.


As only masters can sell them here, this cannot apply to "anybody". "Anybody" does not have the option.

Question: A master sells a skin here on WC and the same skin on his/her own site. If the skin is advertised for sale on additional sites on the net, is there any obligation to mention WC or is it fine to link only his/her own site?

PS... A most interesting thread!
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Z71
Zoomba
Join Date 11/2002
+114
Reply #67 November 16, 2007 9:08:01 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums

Maybe I'm getting a different take on what Vstyler is getting at (par for the course for me), but I get the sense that he is concerned that if anyone, Master or not, can 'advertise' offsite skins for sale here at WC in the forums, it negates a lot of the incentive to become a Master; perhaps not egotistically but at least financially.

Talk to any of the Master Skinners who sell their stuff on their own as well as here on WinCustomize.  Ask how sales numbers compare between the two.  When Master Skins come in, they get top-billing on the front page, they get listed on the Top Master Skins page.  There is a lot of promotion that Masters get when placing a skin for sale via our program.

At the end of the day, any skinner can setup their own website, anyone can sell widgets on a webpage, it's not technologically difficult.  What most folks don't have though is the reach to a large audience.  That really tips the scales.  We've grown a very large community over the years, and the advantage for the Master Skinners is they get access to that audience through us when posting a Master Skin.

As to the issue of "spamming", it really depends on how things are handled and done.  Do people consider all the free Harmony skins to support the Harmony WB to be spamming or advertising?  They were free to the community.  How about WhiteFire2?  Even though it's free, it's all under the MaxStyles "brand", technically promoting what they're doing over there.  I really wouldn't consider any of that spam, but it seems some of you do.

Yes, in the past we've promoted WinStep, Pixtudio, The Skins Factory etc.  In fact we've promoted other skinning sites in the recent past.  WinCustomize believes in promoting the work of others, even beyond our walls because anything that helps skinners period strengthens the community as a whole.

And like I said earlier, Z71 and I are going to talk this over.  I've already got a pretty good idea on what sort of compromise can be reached.

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Z71
brewman
Join Date 08/2002
+4
Reply #68 November 16, 2007 9:27:31 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums


When Master Skins come in, they get top-billing on the front page




Only a few "selected" Master Skins have been featured ... Relent was not promoted.
Someone decided it wasn't worthy.

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Z71
unclerob
Join Date 08/2006
+40
Reply #69 November 16, 2007 9:40:45 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
If just anyone is allowed to advertise skins then the entire Master Skin concept falls apart. Shitty skins will be put up for sale and there is more ads on a site that I pay to get rid of.

Brads screenshot of the day that has been up for well over a month is an ad in my opinion. Some people try to make screenshots to get a shot of the day. It is sort of disrespecting the community. It's an ad no matter how you try to spin it.



Well... master skinners aren't just anyone, they are master skinners, so I'll just make the assumption that shitty skins will not be put up for sale, a skin created by a master skinner would be of decent quality - I think it's a safe assumption to make. Plus wincustomize is part of the skinning community, wouldn't news & events in the rest of the skinning community be a part of the wc daily digest? (This is an honest question, I'm interested in hearing the answer on this).

Brad's screenshot of the day is part of the advertisement of WB6, I'm assuming Stardock is allowed to advertise on wincustomize.com, I don't have a problem with it. I personally view screenshots from the ss gallery, that ss of the day by Brad on the gallery main page doesn't make me go to the ss gallery any more/less than I did before.

I'm just happy to be a member of this vibrant & colorful site, I don't mind reading posts about maxstyles website, Ross edited his original post so I had to view his profile to find his site address to view the new skin. I didn't see any harm in the announcement of his new skin hosted on his site but that's me, I'm still just a noob when it comes to this site and it's general policies. For me, this site is my home page, my first stop on the net, can't speak for the future but for now, it won't be changing anytime soon regardless announcement from other sites hosting premium skins. I also think the master skin program on this site is working well.

just my 0.02cents cdn.

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Z71
vStyler
Join Date 11/2004
+919
Reply #70 November 16, 2007 9:42:39 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
For the record I take back calling Ross's post spam.. its an ugly term.. It was however self promotion and even though yes I do participate in it also.. I personally try to keep it unobtrusive out of respect to others and to Stardock. Thats all.. this blew up into more than I expected it to but perhaps that not such a bad thing if all ends well.
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Z71
Fairyy~
Join Date 02/2004
+49
Reply #71 November 16, 2007 9:50:05 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Brewman: Only a few "selected" Master Skins have been featured ... Relent was not promoted.
Someone decided it wasn't worthy.


I bought Relent. It was more than 'worthy' but its true that some receive way more features and top billing...I just accept it and go along my merry way.

For instance..The WC Halloween Community blind - Every skin associated with it was featured - the blind was featured twice I believe.

But I noticed the only 2 skins not featured were the Rainlendar and the RightClick Menu.

I guess they weren't ' worthy' either...but then again some of us just are ' extras ' at WC...

Z71 has to promote himself.

T'was a devious plan Z71 - you got me to go to your site and buy the suite
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Z71
Fairyy~
Join Date 02/2004
+49
Reply #72 November 16, 2007 9:57:06 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
For the record I take back calling Ross's post spam.. its an ugly term.. It was however self promotion and even though yes I do participate in it also


Yes it was an ugly term and you should of know that - its what they called your Screen Shot of your " Harmoney " blind with its link to Max Styles that you uploaded to the windowblind section of Deviant Art. They called it spam. You removed it. But then you turn around and do the same thing to Z71 ... that was wrong. But, I'm sure all will turn out well in the end - it always does .
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Z71
vStyler
Join Date 11/2004
+919
Reply #73 November 16, 2007 10:07:16 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
I see DA and here as two different entities..honestly i felt no quarms about posting it there.. the whole place is a mess and full of advertising and fake links, spam etc... whats good for the goose... not really a fair comparison to this discussion, I happen to care about this community.
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Z71
Fairyy~
Join Date 02/2004
+49
Reply #74 November 16, 2007 10:15:56 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
I see DA and here as two different entities..honestly i felt no quarms about posting it there.. the whole place is a mess and full of advertising and fake links, spam etc... whats good for the goose... not really a fair comparison to this discussion, I happen to care about this community


And I don't ? I've been here for years. And I think it was a fair comparison to the discussion and your reply was predictable. DA is associated with this site regardless if its a wasteland of garbage and rips. My point was they called you spam and you turned around and called Z71 spam. Tit for tat ?
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Z71
Zoomba
Join Date 11/2002
+114
Reply #75 November 16, 2007 10:16:08 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums

Only a few "selected" Master Skins have been featured ... Relent was not promoted.
Someone decided it wasn't worthy.

Sorry, I didn't start the featuring until well into the program, so the early ones got left out.  I'll be correcting that in the future.

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