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joeKnowledge

Join Date 03/2004

Why Build With No Trees?

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Richard Patterson for The New York Times

WHY???

I posted this on my blog as a responce to other posts:
And yet they keep on biulding them like this.

I understand part of the reason... trees roots grow in sewer lines... they break up sidewalks... they can also do other things that can be home owner nightmares (like falling on your house, getting fined for not taking care of the tree or distroying it)

There has to be a balance between the picture above and having some trees. I mean come on! With the housing market at its peak now, almost anyone can afford to add more sidewalk or more street (maybe even an island in the middle of the street for trees)

Face it: The best nieghborhoods to grow up in have trees. Period.

=======

So what do you think? Why does America make these blank statements of urban sprawl? I an't imagine being a kid growing up in that? No shade, no tag bases, no climbing, no nothing!!!!!

Its crazy! I am tired of it. I think I wanted to become an architect just to stop this crap.
One day, I am going to go back to school for Architecture (like when I am 55 or 60) and live my other dream once upon a time ago...

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I hear ya, Joe.
I grew up in a neighborhood with trees, and alleys in the back.
Looked almost as nice as the neighborhood in 'Leave it to Beaver'.

America is only making the blank statements by not avoiding those types of developemnts. If nobody moved in, the design would change.

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NightTrainthedark

Join Date 07/2003

+255

As a contractor I can pretty much guarantee it is not a design issue. It simply comes down to a cost issue. Trees cost money to purchase,plant,and maintain until they mature. The Developer that did that subdivision probably saved a milion dollars depending on the size of the development.

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Chasbo

Join Date 01/2005

+958

Gimmie da trees!! Not only do they look good but are good for the air. If you place them properly they provide much needed shade and lower the temp in the house on hot days. Another thing that bothers me about these developments is how they put the garage in the front of the house. That is just plain ugly to me. I too grew up in a neighborhood with trees and alleys and CHARACTER! One more thing, around here, the new developments have really stupid names: Hidden Lakes - for chrisake the lake is a retention pond! The Willows of Shady Lane - I don't see any Willow trees! It reminds me of a Firesign Theatre skit where they talk about Rancho Malaria

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Its crazy! I am tired of it. I think I wanted to become an architect just to stop this crap.

Then the engineers hit you with the budget, and the architects shut up!

No, just kidding...I definitely think they should have trees, but out in the desert that's probably tough when they didn't cut through a forest to begin with to make the neighborhood. I'm sure the residents of said sururbia will plant some. Or at least I hope.

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My Husband and I survey for a living. Where we live, trees that are cut down during boundry surveying on up to clearing the losts have to be replaced with others by law, if more than the alloted amount for that area have been cut down. There has also got to be an exact amount of trees in the buffer zones and in the front yards of each lot. That is accomplished by doing tree locating, which is a long tedious job if there are alot of trees. We also have to identify what type they are. That is done before anything else is. It is not done by all builders though. Most have us do the tree location because it is cheaper to pay us to count, locate and identify the trees than it is to go in and strip the land then have to pay the bigger bucks to replace them. As much a pain in the butt as it can be, I'm glad this state values the trees and cares about polution more than saving money. I guess the greedy builders go somewhere else.

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joeKnowledge

Join Date 03/2004

they saved a million?

But look at the result?

I just feel like... if your going to spend 10 million on it, spend another 5 on the trees.

One of my friends back in the day lived in one of those places in New Jersey and it sucked. I looked around and thought to myself (why would anybody want to come outside in this?

Think about it.

You buy the house like the picture above and then what? You live there? For years? With KIDS????

I WISH SOMEONE WOULD SAY: 'HEY LOOK AT THIS! WE ARE BUILDING WITH TREES!'

It just really bothers me. You could be making something people want and would pay for but you biuld a wide open space full of houses in the middle of nowhere.

The article talks about McMansions... but even estates have gardens and treet. some kind of foilage.

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NightTrainthedark

Join Date 07/2003

+255

Town officials that allow this to happen probably have a financial interest that have nothing to do with taxes.

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I am with you with this one joeKnowledge, I even have a name for suburbs like that. "concrete getto"

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I totally agree that trees not only add character, but are important in many other ways. Of course some locations can't truly support trees. If they can't support trees then don't build the houses all the same. That annoys me a lot. I know it costs more to build them differently, but they look like cookie cutters. But maybe the price of those homes are cheap enough that someone buys them.
And ok so you have to build them all the same, but why then all the same COLOR?? Boring boring boring.

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starkers

Join Date 05/2004

+1153

It's the same here in Oz....housing developers get a hold of a tract of bushland and bulldoze just about every tree on it for a higher percentage of bricks and mortar. Yes, it's a sad, sad thing that people find they must live in nature exclusion zones to have a roof over their heads.

I can look back to housing estates that began 20 and 30 years ago, where all the native trees were cleared, and to this day there are no trees of any significance on any of them...the local parks consisting of large chunks of concrete and steel, because, in their 'infinite wisdom', the developers felt nature hadn't provided an adequate playground for kids. Shoot! back when I was a boy, we had no monkey bars and park paraphanalia, it was a rope or two and the mother of invention to make the best of what was around....trees, lots of trees, nature in all its glory.

I feel sad for the kids of today, caught right in the middle of the incessant urban sprawl that marches right over the top of all in its way to make way for yet another housing estate, highrise, motorway, factory....

Some say it's progress, but is it? And at what cost? "Yes Billy, you can climb that tree, but be very careful of those power lines." Or "Yes Emma, you can play in the park, but don't go near that storm water drain because you'll get sucked into it."

I never had to cross 4, 6 or 8 lanes of traffic to get to school or the local shop, but that has increasingly become a hazard for the kids of today. Sure, some authorities have implemented laws to retain some trees and a bit of natural habitat, but quite simply, they don't go far enough, especially when we have so many endangered species, many on the verge of extinction, because of mankind's destruction of natural resources

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1812

Ah...breed like automatons...live like automatons.

You get the environment/society you deserve.

Don't bother thinking that becoming an Architect will somehow save the world. You will simply call yourself happy as a pig in shit to just win ONE issue with a council with ONE application for ONE residence.

Architects are born with ideology and die with disappointment.

Engineers wouldn't understand an aesthetic if it ran over their dog and stole their wife.

Planners parrot policy formulated through economic constraint and modern consumerism and urban sprawl determines that the car takes precedence over the environment.

Developers build housing for breeders to increase demand for more housing. Let's face it...a tree or two could be seen as dangerous...falling out of them and running into them might reduce the breeding stock for the next generation of urban sprawl.

Think about it, folks....if these asphalt jungles were NOT populated the idiots would have to revise their style...even add trees....

But they are, so they don't....

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Developers build housing for breeders to increase demand for more housing.

LMAO Interesting observation Jafo...Sheeeeesh!

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At the risk of sounding silly by asking this without first reading the whole post-

Am I the only one that's noticed that there are in fact some trees in that picture? I can count 2, maybe 3 or 4.

I've seen pictures of the neighborhood I live in when it was first built, and it looks exactly like that. Y'know why? Saplings.
Granted there aren't as many trees as there could be, but there are some..

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Jafo

Join Date 03/2001

+1812

1970...2 years before embarking on 33 years of Architecture I wrote an essay about Urban Development....a local new subdivision was going up....called itself 'Gladstone Park'....sounded leafy, wot?....nope....there were 4 trees...on the entire x number of acres [4,500 homes]...but fear not...the new home owners were 'given' $10 each to plant some trees....pretty pathetic when you think about it...they'd just spent 4 or 5k just to buy their block...getting 10 bucks back was a laugh.

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starkers

Join Date 05/2004

+1153

there are in fact some trees in that picture? I can count 2, maybe 3 or 4.

Possibly there are, but it's certainly not the place to sling a hammock, sip lemonade in the shade or listen to the singing of birds.....not even to take your dog for a walk.

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gosh. that photo says all. It's ridiculous to create a neighborhood without trees.

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Lantec

Join Date 07/2003

+346

Then the engineers hit you with the budget, and the architects shut up!

I own a Civil Engineering Company in one of the top ten markets in the US. I can tell you that the budget comes before the engineering. A person does not contract for tens of thousands of dollars without already having a budget. My job is to work with the developer to see that he builds to the CODES in place. If your local government does not have any tree protection ordinance in place or require tree replacement during development then the citizens or you municipality are to blame not the developer. In florida we have extensive tree replacement and protection requirements plus the requirement to have a professional Landscape Architect involved from the beginning of design. The developer has no choice and because of THAT he budgets for trees and landscaping.

I would suggest to those who do not like the kind of development seen in the photo GET INVOVLED in your local government. Go to City or County Council meetings. The Planning Commissions are usually responsible for the kind of code changes you need to keep this from happening.

I do, as a matter of fact have more control over what ultimately happens to a undeveloped property than most anyone else because I have the developer's ear. I happen to be a bit of an environmentalist myself. I have a staff biologist who inspects each site before we start design to access whether it is occupied by endangered or threatened species (plant or animal). I "lend" him out to the County for lectures and to work with 4H groups etc.My wife is the secretary of the local Audubon Society and I sometimes speak at coucil against certain development codec changes which would make things easier for my clients. I was involved in the regional change in code to a requirement of 15% of the project land to be put into a tree preservation area which must contain at least 50% of the specimen trees already on site. It started in one municipality and spread to almost all other counties and cities within Central Florida.

My Husband and I survey for a living.

Cindy, I started in surveying also. Your situation is much the same as here. One of the major expenses on large projects is the Tree Survey. In fact in the 80's when the law was passed the cost of a survey went up around 500%. That does not include the cost to replace the taken trees. The developer's caught in the change lost their shirts. But like any other investment, development is a bit of a gamble. Some do the investigation up front well enough to know what they are spending and what may change during the six month to one year process.

Jafo, I can't count the times a project has gone away because the Architect had visions of grandure. Banks will not loan money for crystal chandaliers and imported marble floors without good reason. The banks also look at reality. If you can build a rectangle with 100,000 sq.ft. of space for X and you can build a dome or some other unique design with 100,000 sq.ft. for 3X....guess what the banks prefer.

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Fuzzy Logic

Join Date 05/2002

+493

The people responsible for barren wastelands masquerading as housing estates are the people dumb enough to buy the houses. Developers will only build what they know will sell. So, if people are willing to live in a sterile environment, why should the developer add any extras... like trees... which cost money for no return.

I wouldn't want to live there or anywhere similar. No trees, no grass, no way...

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joeKnowledge

Join Date 03/2004

I should have studies Civil Engineering instead of Architecture... Architects seem to be there only to approve plans, if that. The developer seems to always go to the contractor with the hopes that they have an architect on staff rather than a architetural office.

Sure there are a couple of trees... they look like branches coming out of the ground... all 4 of them out of how much property? How long will it take for them to grow (if they make it)?

What caught me off guard in the article was this:
Developers have done surveys to determine what potential owners want.

???????
People really want that?

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Cindy, I started in surveying also.

Sorry this is so late in the game, but I wanted to tell you that my husband is a PLS who owns his own Surveying company. This is where we are ending!! He is also a Civil Engineer, but he really loves surveying.

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Lantec

Join Date 07/2003

+346

I'm looking to hire a PE and he's got exactly the kind of experience I'd be looking for. Have you ever thought of moving to Florida? Probably wouldn't be as lucrative as his own Co. but then again he wouldn't have to worry about payroll, tax season, client relationships, overhead, etc. etc.

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Most new developments start with younger trees...

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That is a very nice offer. Yes, I have thought about living in Florida, I would love to live there, but there are too many hurricanes. We deal with enough already here in NC, but there is more land between us and the water than there would be in Florida. One is going on right now!! Our daughter, her 3 kids and husband are here too. We want to be part of their lives. We don't have a payroll or overhead as I am the only employee. I operate the Instrument. We planned and worked hard to start our business debt free. He has been using alot of GPS lately as I was injured on the job and can not work right now. He is also partnered up more or less with our past boss (before we started the business) Have you considered living in NC? It is horrible trying to find people that know how to survey anymore. Most of them are drug addicts or people who are there to get a paycheck, and couldn't tell the difference between a prism pole and the gun!! When my husband got started 25 years ago, they were still pulling chains. A person had to work their way up the ranks. Now it is so desperate around here, anybody is hired to fill in, and you must know what that is like. Not good!!!

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Lantec

Join Date 07/2003

+346

I'm a Florida Native. Here that's 1 out of every 10 people you meet. From what I hear, in the Carolina's is where you'll find the other nine Floridians. I believe we're as loved there as New Yorkers are here.

I still have a plumb-bob and a brass level I use as "decoration" If I dig around in the garage I can probably find a 100' metal tape and a few pk nails. Your right about the availability of good crew personnel. It's the same with Engineers. They all go for Transportation nowadays because it's easier. When you do find one with Development experience they prefer to work on the Government side where it's a 2 hour work day with 6 hours of breaks.
I stopped surveying for health reasons. I cut my kneecap in half with a machete in 1986 and haven't been able to kneel very well since. I started doing drainage design after that to stay out of the heat.

I was actually pushed into starting my own business by my co-workers. My last employer was more interested in his Social Position in town than taking care of the people feeding him. You may know the type....built a new home just off the beach, bought himself a 28ft offshore fishing boat and bought his wife a Jag for X-mas and then told us no one would be getting bonuses because it was a bad year. That was 1990, and I never regretted my decision even though it took me eight years to pay off the debt I incurred in the first two.
Stay safe. Stay inside during the storm. Most of the injuries and deaths occur during the clean-up (recent events being the exception).

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Man, you did get hurt! I'm so sorry. That must have hurt like hell.I know the type you're talking about. That is so pathetic. Makes ya wonder how they sleep at night. Our old boss, now partner was the best man at our wedding. He is good people.
I fell down the hill of rocks on the railroad tracks and hurt my knee. I have Capsulitis in my right hip where it joins with my leg. I had quit a few stupid accidents while surveying. My right leg fell through an old rotten tree root up to the hip and that was the begining of the end for me. I only went down from the heat once. My ears started burning like they were on fire and the next thing I knew, Troy was bent over me squeezing the sweat out of his bandana on me. We were on our way out of the woods cos we had run out of water. Very scary. Took me 2 day's to get over it. We have pk nails all over the place!! Stakes, flagging and a few p-nuts too. Troy mostly does maps and design work now, occassionally GPS and some new sytem that just came out awhile back. We are getting too old to wander around the fallen trees in the woods!! There is alot of hurricane Fran destruction laying out there still. He designed alot of the streets in Raleigh as well as alot of the newer parts of the airport, strip malls and various places around the area. He loves it. I didn't love it as much as he does!!
The Engineers now a days are book smart, but when it comes to actual application and the way things really are, they are dumb as a door post. It isn't anything like it use to be. People took pride in their work. Now half of them don't even know what town they're in.
Well, I guess I have talked your ear off! I really am sorry you hurt yourself so bad. It's an easy thing to do in that job. I'm greatful I never cut myself on the few occassions I cut line or something. The guys were always pretty good to me, and always did most of the cutting. Not too many woman in the field yet and standing behind the gun all the time can get on ya after awhile. Every now and then I had to do something else. Take care.. Cindi

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