As much as I wanted to be done with this thread.....here I am again. I just have a few points to make:

1: It may at one time been true that the "vast majority" of gun owners were very competent and responsible. Fear, panic, popularity of violent movies, gangs, end of days wackos, etc. has, I believe swung this in the opposite direction. I doubt the "vast majority" has even fired the weapon they own. In most cities, there isn't even a safe, legal place to practice anyway so it ends up on the nightstand or under a sofa cushion "just in case"

2: I learned to shoot with a single shot .22 cal rifle and single shot .410 shotgun. Accuracy wins over quantity every time. There has always been a restriction here in Illinois limiting shotguns to 3 rounds when hunting (called a plugged gun). If you can't hit an unarmed duck, squirrel or rabbit with 3 rounds of 12 gauge.....let the damn thing go. Bow and black powder seasons here show that you can indeed put meat on the table without an AR15 or AK47. My "Dream gun" is a Thompson/Center single shot, not a Thompson Sub Machine Gun. If I did have to shoot someone, I'd prefer to not shoot 5 of my neighbors while I'm at it.

3: Muzzle-loaders, the guns of our forefathers, and the guns of today are indeed far apart in lethality. Any Indian worth his beads could out shoot in quantity and accuracy a muzzled loaded weapon holder.........by at least 6 arrows to one round. The point here is the shear number of firearm wielding white people was their undoing, not how many lead balls were fired at them by each gun.  The repeating rifle and Gatling gun weren't really needed, we had them outnumbered, starving and on the run by the time those came along.

4: Legitimate gun collectors, or at least the few I had in my family, had historic or unique weapons... most all were rendered unable to fire in a way that did not reduce their value. You can't shoot anyone with a gun with no firing pin or a blocked chamber. That is a "responsible" way to collect them.

"5.9 in every 100,000 suicide by gun each year.  There are 300 million Americans.... that's quite a useful tool for 18000 suicides p/a."

That only takes one round, what are you going to do with the remaining 16 bullets in the gun?

Mental health issues are swept under the rug here. Did anyone read the links I provided earlier? Our good Governor is closing down the few sources left for those who need help the most. We can't afford them he says. I ask, can we afford  to NOT have them?

Peace, everyone. Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, etc. etc. etc.

Isn't that the "american way"?   Always being concerned with how others are running theirs?  I guess when the shoe is on the other foot it doesn't feel so good eh?   

EX-Fucking-Scuse me?

People got all hell bent when something derogatory about Aussies was said.

You owe American's an apology for that remark!

Actually, it's quite enlightening....just how the attitudes towards gun proliferation within the US differ so profoundly between those within the US and those without.

It truly must be social conditioning over several centuries and definitely not something that can be turned around to the benefit of all, not when those who would benefit cannot see a problem, no matter how bluntly it is pointed out to them.

Those 'idiotic facebook users' from the OP are merely symptomatic of the cancer undermining modern society....perhaps they'll be the next 'generation' of child killers.... it won't be 'caused' by some satanic message in a heavy metal song when played backwards...it'll because they wake up and discover Beiber is a no-talent wanker....

I made the first post on here which I thought was related to the thread. Have read most of what has been taking place. Just realized only a small part was taken out of my post like "Things will get better in time"

Here is what it's actually related to

"I know what it feels like to lose someone that meant everything to me and it hurts. Things will get better in time but all involved will never forget and those that care about people and didn't lose a loved one in this event will never forget." This is the full part and so it's understood a bit better I would like to explain what it was meant to be taken as but really it is what it says if a small part wasn't used.

The pain of losing a loved one is great. However in time it does ease and life will continue but it never goes away. So as bad as the pain is now it will ease or get better in time but you will never forget your loved one. Hope this clears that up.

I haven't taken part in any of this crap that has been posted because my views on if you should have a gun or not is my business only and don't feel it's something that needs to be debated. Just sit back and read all that was posted again, post after post. Now there are WC or if you wish to call it internet friends going after each other. This really makes for a fine community. This thing has gone beyond a difference of opinions or debate as surely you can see some hatred in here now. In my five years I have seen a lot of threads shut down that had a lot less shit on them that is taking place here. Why do I keep reading, I will tell you. I started to see some anger building between people and continued to follow this in hopes it would calm down but actually it keeps getting worst.

This was posted under the Twitter listing       "If you see people laughing and acting happy, ask them "Have you heard what happened in Newtown, Connecticut?". Odds on the answer will be, "Huh?". If after you tell them, they respond blithely: Run!"

I went to an event last night and must have talked to 40 people or more. Was there some laughing going on, sure. however just mention the tragic situstion that just took place and anyone you talked to said things like "so sad" "what the families must be going through has to ab so bad" Many, many more things along those lines. Did life stop, no but believe when you or people mentioned it to you it was sincere. So I'm not on Twitter but this is part of what the World is made of and if you look at the profile pictures looks like most are young people or kids. But I expect that the percentage is so very, very small that aren't affected this and other tragic events. If someone asks me who I voted for I don't tell them for fear of a fight. when I don't say there is no problem but if I were to say and they voted for the other guy something will be said as to why I voted for who I did than a verbal war breaks out. Really nothing wrong with saying "I don't think people should have guns" or "I think there is nothing wrong with people having guns" Conversation over but we all know it isn't because at least one and sometimes both think they have to have the last word. That is what this thread has become, hatred to be honest and not a debate.

OK, if you say so. I would just hate it if WC members decided not to talk to one another over something like this.

However I will take your experience in these matters and trust it.

I have a daughter about to start school in January so this event affected me and my wife quite a lot even though we live safe and sound in the UK. I simply cannot contemplate how anyone could harm small children at such an innocent age under any circumstances.

Anyway. That's not why I've decided to add to this lengthy thread.

In spite of the fact that I'm not at all keen on gun ownership I am also not very much against it, it seems to me that the rush to ban personal weapons is actually a non sequitur.

I am old enough to remember a time when events like this just didn't happen in the US and just about everyone had guns then too so it seems to me that it's something else that has changed to make people commit these awful crimes. If so the American political establishment needs to stop trying to score points off the opposing factions and get to the bottom of why. I have my own theories and what worries me so deeply is that the possible causes have taken root here too; may God protect my daughter.

1)  I'll start with saying that automatic weapons, or anything designed specifically for the military, is simply un-necessary.

2)  However, blaming guns for even a single death is irresponsible, to say the least.  The event in question could just as easily been accomplished with a wide variety of improvised weapons, with a possibly higher casualty rate.  Not to mention the simplicity of making a gun from scrap iron and a few household chemicals.  Or a bomb, or even a knife.  A weapon is a weapon, end of story.  Whether you want to believe it or not, your number one concern is in fact that you don't trust other people. 

3)  The mental health claim is nearly as irresponsible as blaming guns for these deaths.  Yes, quite a few people who have/are liable to commit crimes like these are mentally unstable, but just as many are, for lack of a better word, just evil at heart.  I recognize that some of you may scoff at the word evil, even link it to a state only existing in fantasy, but it is very real.  It seems like the modern world is hell-bent on not blaming people for their actions, instead trying to find any and every other possible excuse for why something like this could possibly happen.

4)  If It's not obvious by this point, I support gun ownership.  And the reason has nothing to do with guns.  This is a bit off track, but I believe there are actually too many laws in this world.  A great many of them are legitimately needed, but there are far more that simply should not have ever existed in the first place, or are out-dated and need to be removed.  I'll stop that statement there since it is unrelated, only posted to clarify my reasoning.

5)  Jafo:  What gives any person the right to "Allow" any other person to do anything in the first place?  This kind of thinking is the basis for some of these murders.  Someone feels he/she is being oppressed and finally snaps and removes their oppressor.  I'm not saying it's right, but it should not come to that in the first place.  (Don't think I worded that right...)

6)  As to Dave's comment, I just read the first 4 pages so far, but based on that, I definitely see the hate.  I get where it is coming from, but it is mis-directed.  I'm all for mental health exams prior to owning a weapon, but that is as far as I am willing to budge as far as gun-ownership goes.

7)  Now that I've cooled down enough to respond to Jafo's original statement, I'll respond to it:  What kind of argument is this supposed to be?

Those determined to commit a crime will do so.  There is no room for discussion here.  To me all this said was "Don't you dare try to be logical about this, guns are bad because people died."  This would stop the kind of incident that we were originally discussing here, but mental health screening, paired with responsibility of the gun's use being placed upon its owner, would do exactly the same thing without endangering a person's right to protect themselves.  The right choice is pretty obvious here.

8) Guns are a tool.  I believe development of that tool has far surpassed logical necessity, but they are still just a tool, an object.  Objects do not commit crimes, people use them to do so.  Banning guns would simply remove one of thousands of such tools from "EASY" access and encourage those who commit these crimes to simply become more creative in the way they choose to kill eachother.

I have more to say, but this will do for now.

-Twi