It's a sad day when we can't separate the concepts of sympathy and justice.

I felt tremendous compassion when I saw Jeffrey Dahmer's father say when he met him after his arrest his son told him, "I guess I blew it really bad Dad"...and his father replied, "You're still my son".

David Berkowitz, a.k.a., "Son of Sam", has changed immensely in prison and is even admired by his guards and fellow prisoners and he sated that he never wanted to be released because no matter how much he has changed, he can never undo the murders and harm he did--but they killed people.

You don't have to hate people to want justice.

When people do something that causes real harm and it's because of complete foolishness and disregard for the people they hurt or the damage they did, they need to be punished.

I guarantee you some troopers families will have fear for a long time now because of what these guys did.  It's not "all good, man"

and if it's only "hate" or "love", then not wanting justice for victims means you must hate them.  You can't have it both ways.

Of course times have changed.  But we as a society are still responsible for how our children have grown up and what they become.  For instance, one of my sons has aspergers disease (which someone suggested one of these "individuals" might have).  I as his parent have to step up and make sure that I understand exactly what that is about, how to effectively manage it/him, and how to help him integrate successfully into society.  Until I've done all of that, my job as a parent is incomplete and may even be deemed negligent.

We are (collectively as a society) a small part of what we once were, a larger part of whom our parents allowed/nurtured us into, and part whom we've allowed/nurtured our children into.  We all have resposibility in everything that happens.  When things like these happen, the best form of action is to stop focusing on the "punishment" and or "celebrations" but rather on prevention of further such actions.  The best prevention of such is to promote things like better education, programs to allow those with "syndromes" (if that is in fact a reason why some individuals act out) to use their skills for production and not destruction, better and more encompassing social programs to help our children who find themselves in the precarious position of (for the first time in human history) actually "knowing more" than their parents and don't sometimes know how to properly assert that knowledge in dealing with that and bringing the associated skills to good use.

The above is not just my opinion.  It is in fact the right thing to do.  Those of you so focused on right and wrong should have no difficulty understanding that.

the Monk

Separating 'celebrations', as you call them, from the argument, the ethos reflected in your position is arguably at least one reason lulzSec exists.  The notion that perpetrators of (insert bad/criminal behavior here) deserve some slack because someone else failed to prevent their behavior is so pervasive that 'prevention' is something of a conundrum.  There is a point where 'focusing on prevention' becomes enabling.  The proliferation of laws holding parents accountable, across the board, for the criminal actions of their children has been particularly pernicious.  How does making a parent, no matter how conscientious, a criminal help the child?  Furthermore, children are not completely stupid - they are smart enough to understand the leverage such laws give them, without a correspondingly developed sense of judgment. 

FWIW, I am also speaking as the parent of a child with Asperger's.

Indeed true, there are laws for everyone. Mitigating factors, no matter which can become 'licensing' or enabling. Children can indeed become quite adept at 'button pushing' and taking advantage of perceived 'exceptions' and 'excuses'.

Parenting is never an easy thing for either party.

Nowhere do I say any person(s) should not be held accountable for any/all of their actions.  I'm simply asking for some restraint of our own judgement and re-actions to these individuals.  Nor did I say anything about someone "deserving slack".

I have never given any of my children a "free pass" (not even the son with aspergers), and I certainly do not advocate that anywhere in the world.  Quite possibly these individuals were given a "free pass" too many in their childhood which might have fueled perceptions of "entitlement" etc. etc.   There is nothing enabling about love done right.  Love "done right" opens doors, shows new paths and opportunites, nurtures skills in the right way, and challenges viewpoints and ideals (many people can't see the forest for the trees and just need a little help).  However hate can never be "done right" as the only result of hate is more of the same.

When I speak of providing more for our new generations (as in my post reply #80) I'm talking about providing more direction, more guidance, more stability not more excuses or leverage.  That is something we collectively as a society must accept responsiblity for, and if we're failing at that (which I do believe to a large degree we currently are) then that is where to start with regard to "fixing" these issues.

the Monk

No of course on cannot only use outcome alone as judgement of method however it is usually a fairly good indicator of whether certain methods were even attempted or not.  It is truly unfortunate that there are so many cases where even as you put it "love done right doesn't always work".  Also, while there may be countless ways to "do love right" I think it can be agreed the ways I pointed out regarding how one could go about doing so could only contribute to same.

I think I may have just expressed myself in a somewhat backward way as your point is perfectly in line with my thinking.  I guess when I say things like "we must take responsibility for things as a society" and "that is where to start" I'm expecting the point to get across that if we as society accepted our culpability for things as they currently are then more of the individuals who make up that society would start doing the right things (ie. the things discussed in our previous exchanges).

I also wish your son (*edit* that's assuming a son otherwise read daughter) the best.  It is an interesting road to be the parent of an asperger's child and one although requiring much patience has the potential for many rewards as well.

I suppose we're closer to agreement than not, Monk, but I don't agree that 'society' is culpable or that any sort of top-down societal 'fix' is either possible or desirable, the latter because it let's us off the hook too easily.

Yes, it has been an interesting road, one with no end I'm afraid.  Figuring out what constitutes 'help', in the sense that it enables some degree of independent success and happiness in its inevitable eventual absence, has been most challenging.  That riddle remains mostly unsolved here.

Oh...you mean the laws these brats choose not to abide by?

Why is it that umbrellas seem to open just after the rain happens to justify it?

With that I fundamentally disagree.  It's entirely counter to the notions of free will and individual autonomy, which define freedom of, and responsibility for, action.

An argument can be made that we share culpability for inaction in certain circumstances, but not for the actions of individuals.

No...we are all culpable for what we do [or fail to do] as individuals.

These 'individuals' as pertaining to the OP are culpable for what they do.  They are no different, no matter how much 'fun' they wish to have at others' expense.

The frustrating thing is that too many people laud their actions as something clever and/or heroic.

Brats deserve to be slapped.

"Forgive them for they know not what they do" is a quaint ideal, nothing more.

We have a fundamental philosophical disagreement here.  You can choose to accept a degree of culpability for the actions of your children if you wish, but that's voluntary - you cannot ask or expect others ('society') to accept any such culpability for the actions of your children.  What would you propose I do about the actions of your children?  How is declining to accept culpability for the actions of others equivalent to apathy?  I have no idea what 'effect change' means in this context.

You are conflating free will and responsibility, which are two different things.  And your last two sentences proffer a false dichotomy - the reality is that we are each individually responsible for our own behavior and actions and the 'society' is the result of where the chips fall.  That's the only way to influence the greater 'society' - it's the net result of countless individual actions and interactions.  The fact that we as human beings are intelligent enough to come together and act in the interest of the common good does not mean, ipso facto, that all of us are responsible for everything.