Sorry…it has gone too far

By on March 21, 2015 10:55:50 AM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

DrJBHL

Join Date 04/2002
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This has to rank way up there on the creepy scale.

You remember the creepy Samsung TV that eavesdrops on conversations in the room its located in? If you don’t, it’s here. The truth? TVs since becoming “smart” and “taking orders” by voice command (guess what other appliances do that?) and Stuxnet – you can’t say anything in your own home (or anywhere else they are). Samsung’s privacy policy:

“To provide you the Voice Recognition feature, some voice commands may be transmitted (along with information about your device, including device identifiers) to a third-party service that converts speech to text or to the extent necessary to provide the Voice Recognition features to you. In addition, Samsung may collect and your device may capture voice commands and associated texts so that we can provide you with Voice Recognition features and evaluate and improve the features. Please be aware that if your spoken words include personal or other sensitive information, that information will be among the data captured and transmitted to a third party through your use of Voice Recognition.” – Samsung

Samsung’s answer? “If you don't want your voice commands collected, you can disable the functionality (even though you lose some core TV features in the process).” Perfect asses.

Well, Mattel Corp. now has a great new Barbie doll: The “Hello Barbie”. It connects via Wi-Fi and also records kids’ commands and sends them to an external server “In order to improve voice command tech.” Really? Actually, it will be recording kids’ conversations and routing them to a corporation where all their likes and dislikes will be analyzed and info will be collected on their families and more…in fact anywhere the doll is located. In other words, your home has been bugged without a court warrant! New creepy level achieved!

Mattel is promising that security and privacy has been their top priority while crafting a doll that learns what kids like:

"Mattel and ToyTalk, the San Francisco-based start-up that created the technology used in the doll, say the privacy and security of the technology have been their top priority. "Mattel is committed to safety and security, and Hello Barbie conforms to applicable government standards," Mattel said in a statement." – Techdirt

I’m sure. In fact, the companies rushing face-first toward the billions in potential revenues from the "Internet of Things" market are so fixated on profit, that security and privacy have been afterthoughts -- if a thought at all. That's before we even discuss how this collected voice data creates a wonderful new target for nosy governments courtesy of the Third Party Doctrine.

Well, not to go over the edge, these “privacy standards” are quite concerning. After reading about this latest, I shopped Barbie. The flag really should have been tattered.

I hope this “smart device” craze causes folks to go back to plain old TVs, fridges and Raggedy Anne dolls…that are insentient and just do what they’re supposed to do.

I just hope Raggedy Anne isn’t going undercover.

Source:

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150317/06423830341/barbie-joins-growing-chorus-people-devices-spying-you.shtml

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March 21, 2015 5:43:44 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting DrJBHL,

Well, we'll agree to disagree, then. I maintain that it is an invasion of privacy that it isn't desirable. We won't convince each other.


You're probably right.

I do hope you finish that skin...it looks really promising.

Thanks. The skin itself is actually finished. I'm just working on the Icon package at the moment. I'd like to release them at the same time. 

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March 21, 2015 6:13:10 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

They'll be very well received. You did a good job with the skin...I imagine the Icons will be the same.

MS should have grabbed the skinners when they had the chance...W10 really is buttugly.

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March 21, 2015 6:16:25 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Well if you think about it, the uglier it is, the better for all of us. Maybe we should be hoping for buttugly...

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March 21, 2015 6:34:17 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Kevin_Walter,

Hell, kids use the internet all the time.

And they suicide from online bullying all the time too.

And they're groomed by paedophiles all the time too.

Oh yes, the world really needs another mechanism for child monitoring/exploitation....

Like  it needs a bullet in its collective head.

 

It is a BAD technology...not all technology is good.

Yes it's a 'tool'.  It is a tool designed by marketers to expand their profitability...just like Google [only they claim to do no evil].

Obviously Kevin Walter works in advertising and is thinking 'why the fuck didn't I think of that first?  Another opportunity to exploit, invade and expand.  Profit uber alles.'

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March 21, 2015 7:13:53 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Jafo,

And they suicide from online bullying all the time too.

Irrelevant.

And they're groomed by paedophiles all the time too.

Irrelevant.

Oh yes, the world really needs another mechanism for child monitoring/exploitation....

Like  it needs a bullet in its collective head.

Hyperbole.

It is a BAD technology...not all technology is good.

You have no factual basis for this assumption, considering you have no evidence to support your assertion that that information is going to be used in the manner you believe it will be. You've formed an opinion based on an assumption. That's BAD logic.

Yes it's a 'tool'.  It is a tool designed by marketers to expand their profitability...just like Google [only they claim to do no evil].

Everything marketed is designed to expand profitability. What's your point?

Obviously Kevin Walter works in advertising and is thinking 'why the fuck didn't I think of that first?  Another opportunity to exploit, invade and expand.  Profit uber alles.'

Strawman... hyperbole... also demonstrably untrue. If I were in marketing, I'd likely be making far more than I am now. 

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March 21, 2015 8:11:00 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Jafo,

Yes it's a 'tool'.

I'm inclined to name this tool:  "Hacker Magnet".

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March 21, 2015 10:07:16 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

The whole "Internet of Things" is a hacker magnet. Zero or the flimsiest security...a disaster waiting to happen.


In fact, the companies rushing face-first toward the billions in potential revenues from the "Internet of Things" market are so fixated on profit, that security and privacy have been afterthoughts -- if a thought at all.

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March 22, 2015 12:04:22 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Is anyone aware of any company that has provided customers with something without it being a direct correlation for marketability of the product or profit. There is no reason to believe that Mattel is doing something for the goodness of it's customers only. Based on what companies have done in the past only leads one to believe this is no different. 

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March 22, 2015 3:40:23 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Kevin_Walter,

Irrelevant.

Irrelevant.

Hyperbole.

You have no factual basis for this assumption, considering you have no evidence to support your assertion that that information is going to be used in the manner you believe it will be. You've formed an opinion based on an assumption. That's BAD logic.

Everything marketed is designed to expand profitability. What's your point?
Strawman... hyperbole... also demonstrably untrue. If I were in marketing, I'd likely be making far more than I am now. 
 
Who says?
 
This isn't an argument it's a contradiction [Python quote].
 
Exploitation of a minor's privacy for no better reason than to increase profit.
Sorry, someone needs to re-evaluate  what side of a moral superiority they want to park their bum.
 
Though I must admit it's good to see you are not in marketing....or perhaps engaged in similar invasive practises as is exemplified in the OP....
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March 22, 2015 3:41:21 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Note to self....don't get creative with our quote function [the first 'n' is redundant]....

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March 22, 2015 5:01:44 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Kevin_Walter,


Quoting starkers,

Frankly, if you're that feching lazy that you need voice regognition to replace your TV remote, then you deserve to be spied upon.

As for the Barbie doll, I'd be kicking that to the refuse tip if a child or grandchild of mine was ever given one.

Creepoy isn't the word... try downright illegal.  Well if it isn't it feching should be.  It exploits kids and has the potential for much worse.

Mattell ought to be ashamed of itself for even considering it, much less marketing it.



Mattel should be ashamed of themselves for developing a toy that has the potential to interact with children, offering more opportunity for learning and stimulation, all because you're under the assumption that they're going to use it to spy on people...

 

Yes, Mattell SHOULD be ashamed for developing such a toy.  Whether or not there are educational and stimulation possibilities, the entire idea is to increase sales via information gathered, thus exploiting children and [obviously] their parents.

Furthermore, I make no assumptions about spying.  The toy is designed to listen to anything within range, whether the child or its parents want it to or not.  There may be private moments that are 'eavesdropped' upon because the doll is unknowingly within hearing distance... and that data is collected and stored by Mattell.  Now this is not to say that Mattell would knowingly misuse that information, but how many big companies have been hacked in recent times, thus compromising client, customer information.  The point is, some information should NEVER be collected/stored... period.  Especially when it comes to children!

Moreover, this doll transmits data over to Mattell via wi-fi, which is fraught with danger when you consider how easily it could be intercepted by rock spiders.  Many a parent has been alarmed by weirdos hacking into their baby monitors [which also operate on wi-fi] to spy/prey on their kids, so NO, it is NOT an acceptable risk under ANY circumstances.

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March 22, 2015 6:35:52 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

You know, I had to go back and look it up, and I'm still not sure I have the spirit of the award right, but I think I do, so ....

I'd like to nominate Mattel for a "chutzy" award for this one.

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March 22, 2015 7:25:34 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting starkers,

The point is, some information should NEVER be collected/stored... period. Especially when it comes to children!

This is something Stardock is obliged to enforce on their websites in accordance with COPPA.

Yes, there are 'children' [and others] out there who insist on exposing themselves to real and actual harm through the ignorant dissemination of personal detail, but adults and others with invested authority/responsibility towards others [children] have a duty of care.

Mattel clearly does not.

More shame them.

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March 22, 2015 8:00:59 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Jafo,

adults and others with invested authority/responsibility towards others [children] have a duty of care.

"Don't be evil." seems particularly appropriate (and ironic) in this context.

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March 22, 2015 9:18:02 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

One should consider every new product made now a days has the ability to spy.  The new electric meters we are being forced to have can tell the electric company which room is using the most electricity and what time of day.  One would think, so what.  When you take everything into account, it maters.

I don't consider myself as paranoid but I really don't want to be spied on in my own home.  And as Dave said, sometimes we old folks need our grand children to show us how to use the new electronic products. 

When you grow up with certain freedoms you expect things to go a certain way.

When you grow up being spied on you are accustomed to that way of life so one doesn't even think about it.  Its normal, not given another thought.  They look at the ease of things, not the consequences of what is going on.  Its just the new way of life.

Oh well, enough rant.

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March 22, 2015 10:34:55 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

As far as my computer I keep it as secure as I can. Some of the things I have done came from warnings and post on here and mostly by Doc. 

As far as the rest of my security it's pretty good and better then most. Why I said that. My Smartphone use is limited. I don't put banking info on it. No need but many think it is. Don't hardly ever use the Internet on it. what ever I want to look up or even check FB can be done on my computer. Go ahead and laugh. I have had people tell me they have to have the smart phone with them when they sit on the toilet. That's just plain sad. FaceBook people download and play all these free games. Not much if free people, especially when it comes to games. 

I do understand this generation only knows this method of doing things. I am smart enough without knowing it all that spying is everywhere. So  why should I invite it. However trying to explain this to this generation is like trying to control the Weather. It can't be done. 

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March 22, 2015 12:01:40 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting DaveBax,
FaceBook people download and play all these free games. Not much if free people, especially when it comes to games.


Plenty of games are free.

I'm going to assume that you don't play games, given your statements here.

Continuing from that assumption, I pose a question. If you don't play games, who are you to imply that they're malicious in some way? "Especially when it comes to games."

I've played plenty of free games in my time. Your implications are not only unfounded, they're demonstrably untrue.

I do understand this generation only knows this method of doing things. I am smart enough without knowing it all that spying is everywhere. So  why should I invite it. However trying to explain this to this generation is like trying to control the Weather. It can't be done. 


Refusing to expose yourself to what you believe is dangerous and spreading baseless assumptions as fact are two entirely different things. 

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March 22, 2015 12:21:09 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

I believe DaveBax was referring to this, obliquely: http://www.devicemag.com/2010/10/25/facebook-games-and-security/

He was also referring to the adage "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch." [T.A.N.S.T.A.A.F.L. - Farnham's Freehold, R. A. Heinlein].

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March 22, 2015 12:40:57 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting DrJBHL,

I believe DaveBax was referring to this, obliquely: http://www.devicemag.com/2010/10/25/facebook-games-and-security/

He was also referring to the adage "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch." [T.A.N.S.T.A.A.F.L. - Farnham's Freehold, R. A. Heinlein].


That article requires you to leap a pretty significant logical gap. Not to mention the use of it in the context of this thread is disingenuous. It not only assumes the people playing the games are stupid (sharing information on Facebook that they wouldn't want shared to begin with), but blames the games themselves for this error in judgement.

Quoting starkers,
Yes, Mattell SHOULD be ashamed for developing such a toy.  Whether or not there are educational and stimulation possibilities, the entire idea is to increase sales via information gathered, thus exploiting children and [obviously] their parents.


Mattel is a business, yes. Mattel wants to increase profits in any way possible, yes. That same as every single business still operating today. Of course they want to increase sales, it goes without saying. That doesn't make any product they market inherently evil, as you seem to think it does. Disregarding positive features in favor of pointing out a common truth of any and every business is... pointless.

Furthermore, I make no assumptions about spying.

No, you do. The term "spy" implies espionage. It implies malicious intent. The definition of "spying" is to "observe someone furtively". The term "furtively" is important. It means that that you believe your observation is malicious in some aspect, requiring you to avoid discovery for fear of negative consequences.

It would be the case if they were trying to hide the fact that the doll will send observed data to Mattel. They obviously are not.

The toy is designed to listen to anything within range, whether the child or its parents want it to or not.  There may be private moments that are 'eavesdropped' upon because the doll is unknowingly within hearing distance... and that data is collected and stored by Mattell.


Are we working under the assumption that the doll will not be capable of being disconnected from the internet or otherwise turned "off" now?

Now this is not to say that Mattell would knowingly misuse that information...


Contradiction of the use or the word "spy".

but how many big companies have been hacked in recent times, thus compromising client, customer information.  The point is, some information should NEVER be collected/stored... period.  Especially when it comes to children!


Considering the goal of most "hackers" who steal consumer information are looking for identities to steal or other sensitive information, the likelihood of a toy company being "hacked" to raid conversations children may be having their dolls is pretty small. Also, your argument here is an appeal to emotion.

Moreover, this doll transmits data over to Mattell via wi-fi, which is fraught with danger when you consider how easily it could be intercepted by rock spiders.  Many a parent has been alarmed by weirdos hacking into their baby monitors [which also operate on wi-fi] to spy/prey on their kids, so NO, it is NOT an acceptable risk under ANY circumstances.


Two problems with this argument. First of all, the reported cases of all "hacked" baby monitors have come down to user ignorance or can otherwise be attributed to those parents not understanding network security. The second problem is your insistence that because some users are inept is a valid reason for a product or feature to not be produced.

 

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March 22, 2015 12:47:30 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

And because Jafo is correct regarding the quote gymnastics... I regretfully double-post.

Quoting Jafo,
Sorry, someone needs to re-evaluate  what side of a moral superiority they want to park their bum.

Am I to reevaluate based on your morals or someone else's?

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March 22, 2015 1:09:17 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Kevin_Walter,

That article requires you to leap a pretty significant logical gap. Not to mention the use of it in the context of this thread is disingenuous. It not only assumes the people playing the games are stupid (sharing information on Facebook that they wouldn't want shared to begin with), but blames the games themselves for this error in judgement.

From YOUR pov.

Quoting Kevin_Walter,

That doesn't make any product they market inherently evil, as you seem to think it does.

Their product is their product and was planned to harvest information.

What are your thoughts regarding cigarettes? That same logic apply to them? The cigarettes are manufactured innocently?

Quoting Kevin_Walter,

It means that that you believe your observation is malicious in some aspect, requiring you to avoid discovery for fear of negative consequences.

Samsung and Mattel are receiving their just desserts for their missteps...Superfish and Lenovo, as well. In fact, every response keeps this thread "up there" and more visible. Thanks.

Quoting Kevin_Walter,

Contradiction of the use or the word "spy".

So, intelligence gathering on hostile regimes is deleterious? Interesting pov. And Mattel didn't put "Information about your child and his/her conversations will be gathered and transmitted to us." on the outside of the packaging in legible print, but rather ant crap sized print in an included brochure only clear AFTER purchase...really above board, right?

Quoting Kevin_Walter,

Considering the goal of most "hackers" who steal consumer information are looking for identities to steal or other sensitive information, the likelihood of a toy company being "hacked" to raid conversations children may be having their dolls is pretty small. Also, your argument here is an appeal to emotion.

The intentions of a miscreant and to whom he sells information are not apparent so, that argument/statement is not valid, or only partially valid as an IFF. Emotion (among humans as opposed to Vulcans) is perfectly valid.

Quoting Kevin_Walter,

Am I to reevaluate based on your morals or someone else's?

To quote Cain, "Am I my brother's keeper?"

 

 

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March 22, 2015 1:48:26 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting DrJBHL,
From YOUR pov.


As opposed to your point of view? Confirmation bias is a thing, you know. 

Their product is their product and was planned to harvest information.

What are your thoughts regarding cigarettes? That same logic apply to them? The cigarettes are manufactured innocently?


Ridiculous argument. Does your logic apply to everything else? Is WindowBlinds (a product marketed on this very site) produced maliciously?
 

Samsung and Mattel are receiving their just desserts for their missteps...Superfish and Lenovo, as well. In fact, every response keeps this thread "up there" and more visible. Thanks.


More visible on this site. But of course, I'm happy to keep a thread catering to like-minded individuals "up there" on a site filled with like-minded individuals.

So, intelligence gathering on hostile regimes is deleterious? Interesting pov. And Mattel didn't put "Information about your child and his/her conversations will be gathered and transmitted to us." on the outside of the packaging in legible print, but rather ant crap sized print in an included brochure only clear AFTER purchase...really above board, right?

Odd... Hello Barbie hasn't been released in stores yet. How could you possibly know what is, or isn't on the box? Are you from the future!? 

Or maybe we're just making assumptions again... 

The intentions of a miscreant and to whom he sells information are not apparent so, that argument/statement is not valid, or only partially valid as an IFF. Emotion (among humans as opposed to Vulcans) is perfectly valid.


No, they're largely apparent by observing the patterns of "hackers" throughout the history of the internet. A database of a large corporation is generally quite difficult to gain access to from outside. It requires a lot of time and effort. This isn't like the movies where some smart guy sits in a coffee shop and casually cracks the FBI's network security.

The likelihood of someone spending the resources (aforementioned time and effort) on raiding a database in which at least 90% of the information collected (I'll admit I just made up that value, but you'd be hard pressed to convince anyone it's unfair), is useless are very slim.

Not to mention the idea that just because other companies have been compromised is a reason for a company not to use similar technology is fundamentally flawed to begin with.

It sorts of reminds me of a video I saw some time ago where someone tried to explain how racism exists in the Michael Brown shooting, evidenced by the fact that racism is proven to exist in police precincts in other parts of the US. It's just absurd. It's like trying to convince a jury that a man should be convicted of murder because other people have been convicted of murder.

Also, emotion is absolutely valid, you're correct on that. However, an appeal to emotion is not a valid argument. It's used in place of one. Hence that particular tactic's label of "logical fallacy".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion 

To quote Cain, "Am I my brother's keeper?"


Irony...

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March 22, 2015 2:03:31 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Hopeless. Really is impossible to get through to you...do you really think your pov is the only right one? Is everyone else wrong?

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March 22, 2015 2:05:28 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Given the age of most Barbie recipients, someone will have to set up the wifi connection for the child(ren).  If that someone capable of doing so doesn't recognize (or care about) the implications, well... 

Mind you, I wouldn't purchase this for my grandchild, but everybody ain't me.

 

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March 22, 2015 2:13:20 PM from Galactic Civilizations III Forums Galactic Civilizations III Forums

Samsung’s answer? “If you don't want your voice commands collected, you can disable the functionality (even though you lose some core TV features in the process).” Perfect asses.

Am I the only one who assumed anything with recording capabilities that isn't designed for that specific purpose (phone, camera, etc.) or running software under my control is a security/privacy risk? It doesn't take news like this to realize that and refuse to buy these things from the moment they're announced, if you value your privacy.

We live in an age where people will gladly give up their privacy just to be able to chat with people more easily and look at cat pictures. They wouldn't make products with these features if people didn't buy them.

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