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Lord KiRon
Lord KiRon
Join Date 06/2003
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Why impulse worse then DVD

April 12, 2008 11:30:04 AM from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
The digital distribution idea is great , I really love it but there are unnoticed strings attached that make it worse then buying DVD in store :

With DVD (yes retail one , the one with annoying protection etc) you can :

1. Sell it.

2. Give it to someone else.

3. Even pass it as heritage


The Impulse and SDC accounts are personal - you can't sell your game , you cant land your game and surely no one can inherit it after you pass away

Of couse you can just give your password to someone , but it's not the same. Let's say I have 10 games on my account but want to sell just one ...

So unless Impulse start include functionality to transfer the "software product" to someone else , some other Impulse account it will be worse then buying real DVD.

The other option is that programs on Impulse should cost significantly less and buyers should made aware about ownership limitations at the time of perches.

Don't get me wrong - I love online distribution idea but that issue should be resolved.

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Lord KiRon
ZubaZ
Join Date 11/2001
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Reply #1 April 12, 2008 11:40:16 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Stardock wants to sell more games.  if you sell your game . .they get nothing.  And they have no guaranty that you aren't still using it.  Most games (and software) isn't really bought anyway; it's licensed.
There are pros and cons for both the user and the producer in both retail distribution and digital.  The trick is to find the balance.  I think SD has done pretty well.
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Lord KiRon
Philly0381
Join Date 11/2004
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Reply #2 April 12, 2008 11:50:21 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Lord KiRon first off it sounds like you may have issues with developers, programers protecting thier products from unauthorized distribution. Just the impression I get with reading this post.  

Second, you are just talking about games, right? Chances are anything that you buy here, all though very good, is not going to increase in value to the extent of inheritance. Just joking.   

I think if you look around, and I don't play games, you will see that the cost is really inexpensive when buying from Stardock. Also, as far as I know you have the same limitations dealing with unauthorized distribution when buying just about any software from any source.

Bottom line, I think most people all ready understand, what you see as a problem or issue, when they purchase from Stardock.  

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Lord KiRon
Jafo
Join Date 03/2001
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Reply #3 April 12, 2008 11:58:40 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums

I bought Drive Image 7 online [silly me thought it was a few dozen meg or so....turned out to be a CD iso around 700 meg]... I downloaded it....and burned it to CD.  I have it now installed...and as the original iso, AND as a hard copy.

Advantages?...I got it when I wanted it....without trying to find it retail somewhere....

Disadvantages?...Took awhile to dl.

Preferences?...not really either way....

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Lord KiRon
Lord KiRon
Join Date 06/2003
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Reply #4 April 12, 2008 12:55:08 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
You missing the point guys .

As I said I LOVE online distribution , it's quick it's easy it... many good things

However the problem is (at least as I can see it) that it causes users unwillingly to gave up their rights, rights they have when they used to buy hard copy.

May be even this is OK as long as user KNOWS what he doing. But usually he does not. And thats a big issue here.
It's a same thing like with electronic books - legally you could sell your hardcopy but you can't sell your PDF etc.

I am bothered with the fact that we waive our rights without noticing.

Philly0381
You right and wrong I do have problems with protections as Starforce not with principal.
And the price is not a point , the point is that if you waive something you at least should get something in return.

Jafo
Your example is not good for SDC/Impulse scheme since you still require to activate the game first time here.
Also what happens if (God forbid ) StarDock closes ? retail hardcopy (or you burned to CD/DVD) software will continue to install , software I bought here will not work without activation on new computer, for example after reinstalling windows.
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Lord KiRon
Philly0381
Join Date 11/2004
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Reply #5 April 12, 2008 1:32:44 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Philly0381
You right and wrong I do have problems with protections as Starforce not with principal.
And the price is not a point , the point is that if you waive something you at least should get something in return.


In your opinion what is Stardock doing different with protecting their software from what others do?

The question of price seemed to be a point in your original post.

The other option is that programs on Impulse should cost significantly less and buyers should made aware about ownership limitations at the time of perches.


I am sure you are aware of this (read reply #1) but the software you and I buy, we don't own it, we pay for a license to use it, that's why the restrictions are there on further distribution of the software. It even applies to the Operating System on your computer. You just paid for the right to use it, that's all. Makes no difference if you have a "hard copy" as you also point out.



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Lord KiRon
ZubaZ
Join Date 11/2001
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Reply #6 April 12, 2008 1:37:30 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Your example is not good for SDC/Impulse scheme since you still require to activate the game first time here.
You don't have to activate Stardock's games to play, only to get updates.
However the problem is (at least as I can see it) that it causes users unwillingly to gave up their rights, rights they have when they used to buy hard copy.
I don't see it as a problem . . just a new way of thinking of things.  To each their own.

And . . Stardock still offers OD on cd here. 
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Lord KiRon
Vinraith
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #7 April 12, 2008 1:40:35 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
There should be a warning about the inability to resell, in all fairness, on the box. I understand why Stardock operates this way and I still buy their products while fully apprised of it, but it comes as a rude shock to a lot of folks who, like myself with other game purchases, rely on the ability to resell software as a hedge against game purchases that don't work out. It was never a problem with GC2, obviously, but I'd sell Sins if the option were there. That purchase, and the fact that I can't recover my money (even in part) is going to make me more cautious about Stardock purchases in the future. No more pre orders or betas, I think, I'll be waiting for demos from now on since if I make an error I'm out the full price of the game. I treat Steam purchases even more cautiously, for what that's worth.
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Lord KiRon
ZubaZ
Join Date 11/2001
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Reply #8 April 12, 2008 1:44:07 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Do the licenses on most games preclude reselling (and they are just ignored)?
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Lord KiRon
Vinraith
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #9 April 12, 2008 1:50:04 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Do the licenses on most games preclude reselling (and they are just ignored)?


I'm certainly not aware of any such preclusion, and the resale market for such things would certainly suggest that there's either not, or that no one actually cares.
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Lord KiRon
DethAdder
Join Date 02/2004
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Reply #10 April 12, 2008 2:13:08 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Sit back, grab a beer and read an entire EULA one day. You might be amazed at what's in there   .
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Lord KiRon
Lord KiRon
Join Date 06/2003
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Reply #11 April 12, 2008 2:19:40 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Indeed , check the eBay and "second hand software" shops.


Anyway I also understand why StarDock operates this way , but StarDock is not the issue here, the issue is much broader thing.
I started this thread mainly to start discussion on the topic, I do not have simple solutions as well.

I also really wanted Frogboy to comment if possible at some point. So far I saw his as a very reasonable and fair person and I am sure when preparing "major industry change" he should address this issue or at least take it into account.



Philly0381
In your opinion what is Stardock doing different with protecting their software from what others do?


They do not install some hidden driver level stuff on my PC that require time to check might not work with some software etc , for me it's a huge + for StarDock but what this has to do with our discussion ?


The question of price seemed to be a point in your original post.

No , you got it completely wrong.
Part of my point is that if you get less of something (e.g. can't sell or give out) you probably should pay less but thats not main idea.



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Lord KiRon
elias001
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #12 April 12, 2008 2:27:30 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
this is similar to the issue of owning virtual assest on Second Life. People were wondering what happens to all the money they shelled out to purchased virtual estates on Second Life's world if for whatever reasons, the company that runs second life ever goes bankrupt. If you purchase something via digital distribution, and you want to own a hard copy, you can always pay the extras to get it ship to you. After all...digital distribution is a convenience for consumers to get the copy of their software faster compare to having to wait for it to arrive at a retail store. So common sense would have it that if you want to own a hard copy, there is an option available at the time you purchased the software that you pay a bit extra to get a hard copy too. It is a no brainer issue. Andif you don't need a actual retail copy, then you can always put your download files into a cd, this way, if anything happens to the digital distributor or the developer, you still have a copy of the software.
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Lord KiRon
HG_Eliminator
Join Date 07/2002
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Reply #13 April 12, 2008 3:20:32 PM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
It's a same thing like with electronic books - legally you could sell your hardcopy but you can't sell your PDF etc.


 Hard copies are much harder to replicate than a pdf.   
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Lord KiRon
Lord KiRon
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Reply #14 April 12, 2008 4:03:13 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Hard copies are much harder to replicate than a pdf.


Reasons are clear no argument here but it still does not means problem does not exits, that's why I started this thread - as psychiatrists say "admitting that problem exist is a half way solving it"




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Lord KiRon
Lord KiRon
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Reply #15 April 12, 2008 4:04:23 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
duplicate
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Lord KiRon
Xan
Join Date 01/2003
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Reply #16 April 13, 2008 8:30:54 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Let's see...

Galactic Civilizations II: $39.95
Sins of a Solar Empire: $39.95

Out of the box, no copy protection, user can sell them.

vs.

Typical console game: $60

Out ofthe box, user can sell them.

So your beef boils down to what? That you can't also sell the service of free updates Stardock provides? How many free updates to console games get? How much more do console games cost out of the box than Stardock's?

Yea, I see greed alright. Just not from Stardock.
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Lord KiRon
elias001
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #17 April 13, 2008 9:03:30 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
the bottom line is, if you want a hard copy, just paid out additonal 10 dollars, you will get a cd inside a box in the mail. What is the problem anyways. You can always sell the hard copy on ebay afterwards if you get sick of the game. No one will stop you or no one will accuse of selling pirate games if you have proved of purchased. Or if you hate the game afterwards, just toss thet hard copy to the garbage bin and never download that game again. It is extremely simple. Problem solved. Lastly, why would you want to see an account anyways, the point of having an account on stardock is so that you can redownload the game anytime you want, you paid to have that convenience.
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Lord KiRon
Fuzzy Logic
Join Date 05/2002
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Reply #18 April 14, 2008 3:06:59 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
The first point, one often overlooked, is you are not buying software. What you are buying is a licence to use software. Out of the box or download is just a method of distribution.

The second point is, you are buying under the terms and conditions of the seller. If you don't like that, don't buy!
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Lord KiRon
killajosh
Join Date 10/2007
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Reply #19 April 14, 2008 3:19:14 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
you folks really should sit down and read those EULAs every time you get one. It makes it more than clear that you are purchasing a license to use a product. They may be boring, but they are definitely informative.
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Lord KiRon
Jafo
Join Date 03/2001
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Reply #20 April 14, 2008 8:18:54 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums

Clicking 'accept' on an EULA is legally arguable that you have read and understood the terms of that EULA, so NOT reading it exposes you to ALL sorts of fun....

...and liability....

 

Read them....

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Lord KiRon
Weidbrewer
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Reply #21 April 14, 2008 9:42:48 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Also what happens if (God forbid ) StarDock closes ? retail hardcopy (or you burned to CD/DVD) software will continue to install , software I bought here will not work without activation on new computer, for example after reinstalling windows.


I can't remember the specifics of how you do it, but I believe that there is a way to burn a back-up CD through SDC. SD personnel: Confrim/Deny?

Clicking 'accept' on an EULA is legally arguable that you have read and understood the terms of that EULA, so NOT reading it exposes you to ALL sorts of fun....

...and liability....



Read them....


Oh yeah...I work in another segment of the software world, and I know our EULA has a number of interesting points buried within it...because of that, I actually make a point to at least skim the EULA of new software I install, just to make sure.
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Lord KiRon
Lord KiRon
Join Date 06/2003
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Reply #22 April 14, 2008 3:59:53 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Clicking 'accept' on an EULA is legally arguable that you have read and understood the terms of that EULA, so NOT reading it exposes you to ALL sorts of fun....
...and liability....
 
Read them....


I remember some research couple of years ago that found that about 90% of EULA (including Microsoft's) are not totaly legal and wouldn't stand trial in most of the cases/states.

So indeed really "funny" can happen in both directions
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Lord KiRon
Lord KiRon
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Reply #23 April 25, 2008 6:29:03 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
On the topic:

http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/Microsoft-to-stop-authorising-songs-bought-on-MSN-Music.html

Who can promise something like that will not happen with Stardock/Impulse ?
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Lord KiRon
KarmaGirl
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Reply #24 April 25, 2008 7:19:33 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums
Actually, if you read the License Agreement, we don't transfer licenses, anyway.  So, though you can sell the hard copy, the person who buys it can't actually register it (we don't like supporting 2  or more people but only getting paid once for it).  So, your "rights" to the license and what you can do with it, per the license agreement, are the same either way.
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Lord KiRon
KarmaGirl
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Reply #25 April 25, 2008 7:27:32 AM
from WinCustomize ForumsWinCustomize Forums

 

Do the licenses on most games preclude reselling (and they are just ignored)?

Game EULA's typically do NOT allow transfer of licenses.  So, though you can buy a used game, you can't register it or get support on it.

I remember some research couple of years ago that found that about 90% of EULA (including Microsoft's) are not totaly legal and wouldn't stand trial in most of the cases/states.

I'd like to see where that research came from.  EULA's are a license agreement and are enforceable since they have a contractual obligation to them.  By accepting them, you are entering a contract.  Using the product after clicking on the "agree" means that you have accepted the contract.  There have been many cases where EULA's have been brought to trial on a large scale and have prevailed.  Owners of software have the right to decide of a license of their software will be used and what type of support they will provide for the software.

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